03.04.2010.
Interview of Minister of Defence Dragan Šutanovac for "Objektiv" magazine
Mister Minister, by the appropriations for the defence Serbia is the last ranked in Europe. How much economic situation in the country determines the combat readiness of the military? In the previous year, but also in 2010, almost all the ministries of defence in Europe had reduced appropriations in the budget. We stayed at the level of the last year. Out of 2.4 percent of GDP as envisaged by the Government’s memorandum, we received 2.15 and this is a serious alarm for the further operation of the defence system. I wish to recall that in the years 2006 and 2007 the military budget amounted to 2.5 percent of gross domestic product.
In the year in which we want to finish the professionalization, the question is being raised whether the funds are sufficient to complete this process. With extreme efforts and functional spending of the funds we receive, the professionalization process, as a priority for this year, will be completed.
However, this budget does not allow for the purchase of modern combat systems and assets necessary for the operation of the military. This requires several hundred million euros.
It is certain that there is no money for purchasing new weapons and combat systems, but is the money from the budget sufficient for the repair of the existing assets in order to continue to be functional?
We have mainly repaired the assets we have. However, there is a shelf life of these assets and they cannot be indefinitely repaired. Also, the technology that existed when the assets were purchased and the modern technology are not compatible. The validity period of these assets is to expire – they are not worthy any more, although they can be used.
You mentioned the completion of the process of professionalisation of the military. National standing army has been a symbol of liberation and democratisation of the Serbian society over the last two centuries. Why was the concept of professional armed forces so easily and unanimously accepted? In a world of new and modern challenges, the concept of the defence system is changing dramatically. Reform in almost all armies in the world comes down to professionalisation. Those who have the financial resources and knowledge are starting with this process. Virtually, a professional soldier is worth two and more conscripts, and a large standing army is not adequate for the part of the tasks and mission of our military as defined in the Armed Forces Act.
Only professionals can go to peacekeeping missions, for example, and it is on a voluntary basis.
But professionalism does not mean closing the doors to recruits.
The army will of course remain open to the general public – everyone who want it will be allowed to receive training and certain certificates after that.
Also, legally we have opened the possibility of forming the active reserve modelled on a number of Western countries. This will mean in practice that a part of members of the Ministry of Defence and the Armed Forces will be able to do some other jobs, and if necessary be deployed in the Serbian Armed Forces. They will be available 365 days a year and ready to accomplish all the three missions of the Serbian Armed Forces.
You say that the process is to be completed during this year. Is there sufficient number of those interested to be professional soldiers?
I believe that this time next year we will be able to say that Serbia has professional armed forces. The very process of manning with professional soldiers, in fact will never be completed, because there will always be a number of them who would leave the military and others who would come.
What will the state offer to these soldiers especially after the termination of service since the carrier of a professional soldier lasts for a certain period of time?
The law defines that these people may serve as professional soldiers or contract soldiers until they reach certain age. Those who prove to be the best, will have the opportunity to complete courses to become non-commissioned officers of the Serbian Armed Forces thus being granted the rights that active non-commissioned officers have.
In addition, we are negotiating with several state institutions including the Ministries of Justice and Police, for these people to obtain the right to priority of employment in these institutions on the positions of judicial or prison guardsmen. As a rule, these are people who have mastered the complete training for weapons and military equipment and who will be in such condition that after the termination of their professional military service they can still offer much in their civilian lives.
The Serbian Parliament adopted a Declaration of Neutrality, but in practice as a country we are completely surrounded by NATO member countries or countries in which this military organization is present. In such situation, what is our basic defence strategy?
Our defence strategy relies on the stability of the region and maximum of correct relations with everyone in the region. If we looked at countries in the neighbourhood as hostile, then the strategy of defence would definitely have to look different, and the budget appropriations for the military would have to be significantly higher.
An isolated country in the 21st century requires huge funds in order to be able to defend itself independently. Switzerland as a neutral country, which is partially surrounded by NATO countries has more than a hundred combat aircraft available to them. In this country the military service is still obligatory.
Serbia, which goes in the direction of modernisation and reduction of the military budget, will have to find a way for integrations, first of all to use all the opportunities within the “Partnership for Peace” programme in which we have not taken all the positions that are available for us.
The question of Serbia's integration into NATO is also an emotional issue, with reason. Still I am interested if anyone made calculation before adopting a parliamentary declaration of military neutrality calculation what will be the cost of that neutrality and how much would cost us NATO membership? This year, about 200 intellectuals launched a campaign and once again they said what they don’t want. The campaign raised many good analyses in the media dealing with the situation in a very pragmatic way. Unfortunately, today in Serbia there is traditionally present pessimism responding negatively to any desire for modernization or improvement. Let us remember only that a number of the Serbian rulers were killed because they wanted to modernise the state.
The time we live in is a time of rapid communications, Internet, the time without Schengen visas. I hope that it will allow Serbian citizens to see what their interest is and that in the future they will opt for the future, not the past.
Only with modernization, Serbia will be able to preserve its tradition and history.
The Yugoslav Army used to be the third military force in Europe at least on paper. Is the Serbian Armed Forces today a respectable force at least in the region?
That teaching that we were the third military force in Europe, and the second in the production of cereals in the world, that our steel is the best after the Swedish one, that are mainly the best in everything, actually led to the fact that our people do not understand that the work is what is appreciated. Small Japanese is not taught the myths, but he is taught from his early age that Japan is a poor country and is in such a geographical location that only work can save them.
I do not believe that Yugoslavia had the third military force in Europe, because if it did it would not to decompose the way it did. After all, today the Ministry of Defence pays out more than 750 general pensions which compared to seven and a half million inhabitants indicates the absurd which it was.
It is important to say that apart from the respect and prestige that the army has re-gained among the citizens, the Serbian Armed Forces enjoys high reputation even beyond the borders of our country. This confidence is expressed through a desire to participate in peacekeeping missions.
Let me remind you that, for example, our peacekeepers in Chad are taking care of the health of the entire contingent of the UN peacekeeping mission. Our army is respected not only in military terms but also in the military medical terms, which is certainly a step ahead.
The opposition quite often criticized foreign ambassadors for their interference in the internal affairs of Serbia. Still, the Russian Ambassador and other officials of that country give themselves the right to assess the validity of any possible decision of Serbia to join NATO. Is this a kind of pressure and why Russia plays on the card of the traditional friendship only when its interests are at issue?
All those who think that in politics good results come only through friendship are wrong and do not understand at the very beginning how the world works. In politics the rule that applies is that only interest is eternal, and everything else is changeable. So, when speaking about the integrations, the EU and NATO, I speak primarily from the standpoint of the interests of the citizens of Serbia. Sometimes this interest is not visible; sometimes to achieve that interest a thorny path must be crossed. To put it more simply – if we have to choose between receiving injections for seven days or drink a cure for six weeks, I'm always for the first option.
As for the impact on the defence system, there is absolutely no ambassador in the Republic of Serbia who has it. We build very high quality relationships with a number of armies around the world, not only those which are in NATO, or outside of that alliance, or among the Non-Aligned. We have excellent relations with China, USA, Norway, Portugal, Iraq, Algeria and many others.
These are not just for the benefit of the defence system, but for the benefit of all the citizens of Serbia, because in many countries the defence system is the main driver of economic cooperation.
When will Serbia open its mission to NATO?
The military part of the mission has been completely conceived and I expect it to be opened in the coming months. It is a great pity that Serbia has not fully participated in the “Partnership for Peace” programme since the end of 2006, and it is naive to believe that if we are absent from this project in which the Russian Federation has forty of its representatives in NATO headquarters in Brussels, we can continue with advancement.
Any kind of isolationism will turn to be a big minus in the end especially for the economic and social status of Serbia's citizens.
What could Serbia use within the “Partnership for Peace” which it has not used so far?
In the programme there are a number of committees and subcommittees. In the work of a number of committees you can participate only if you are an active member of the “Partnership for Peace” programme, if not, you are denied the right of involvement.
On the other hand, NATO is now engaged in energy security, environmental protection, medicine ... wider spectrum, not just defence. Any information that come there are funds that exist you can use – only if you are a full member.
Serbia has not taken this position yet. Why? I can hardly explain that to myself, let alone others.
There are opposing views about NATO even in your party. Is it surprising that Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremi? and you have conflicting views about NATO?
Minister of Foreign Affairs, as an advisor to the President of the Republic, was one of the most responsible persons for the largest step that our country has made towards NATO. I mean joining the “Partnership for Peace” programme. I have no doubt that it was a genuine policy then and that the same policy exists now.
The question of the final membership of NATO is not a foreign policy priority either in this or in the forthcoming years. I think that this theme is used only by those who want to incite emotions and by populist message attract the support of Serbian citizens who care primarily about their social status, their existence and families.
Are you ready for checking the idea of joining NATO in a referendum and how appropriate would it be?
First, it is unnatural to make a referendum against something. Second, I am absolutely convinced that the greatest reformer and founder of modern Turkey Kemal Pasha Ataturk would have lost the referendum if he had asked people whether they wanted Arabic script to be abolished the and Latin one introduced.
I can fully understand that there are people who cannot understand or realize all of the decisions made by leaders, but what is most important is to know what the final goal is. The aim of Ataturk was a modern, pro-European, secular Turkey, Turkey that has become a superpower today. And what is our aim?
What is your answer to the dilemma of Kosovo or the European Union and why do we put this dilemma before us, when nobody asked for this not even in hints?
It is important to bear always in mind that five EU Member States and four NATO countries have not recognized the independence of Kosovo and Metohija and I would like to see a circular letter with the same question addressed to Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Slovakia and Romania. Therefore I think that this question in that way will never be raised for Serbia.
I do not believe that Serbia will ever be brought before such a decision.
What is the security situation in the south of Serbia?
The security situation is good regardless of individual incidents. Bearing in mind that ten years ago there were many terrorists organised in that area we can say that the situation is really safe.
I think that in Serbia living is more secure than in many other countries. See what happened in Moscow or a couple of years ago in London and Madrid.
The “South” base, i.e. Cepotina has finally been completed, but does that mean the conclusion of work on building military bases in the area of three municipalities in the southern Serbia?
Building of the “South” base has been one of the largest infrastructural projects of the Ministry of Defence in the last few decades. It is our wish that besides the capacities for accommodation and work of the Fourth Brigade members, the “South” base is a centre for preparing and training of soldiers to go to the peacekeeping missions, not only from our armed forces but also from the partner armies that wish to cooperate with us.
You have recently stated that crime and corruption are eroding Serbia. Are there any of these phenomena and in the armed forces?
You cannot observe any system in Serbia isolated from the overall social trends. Last year, thanks to the activities of the Military Security Agency (VBA) and the Military Police, a group suspected of abusing their official position at the Ministry of Defence concerning the housing distribution was revealed.
Members of the Military Security Agency, Military Police and the Inspectorate of the Ministry control the work in the defence system daily. Unlike other ministries, we have the internal audit and the state audit.
In the Ministry of Defence there is such a system developed in which it is really hard to bypass the law. However, I believe that there are some isolated cases and attempts and we will do our best from to prevent such occurrences.
Let me remind you that in 2006 the military system was completely destroyed and collapsed, but not because the army has done something wrong, but because the criminal management of the ministry resulted in letting out so many scandals in public which led to the collapse of almost the entire defence system. The reputation was so bad that it was the year when only 27 young men applied for studying at the Military Academy.
How many of them apply today?
One of the priority tasks we had when I came to the Ministry of Defence in 2007 was to regain the reputation of the military primarily among the citizens. In this we succeeded, and this year we have a record high number of those interested to study at the Military Academy. Almost five candidates applied for one place, 25 percent of them being the girls. The first generation of female officers will officially take office in the Serbian Army in September 2011.
At the time of your mandate Serbia became a leader in the Balkans again by exporting weapons and military equipment. Which are the countries that we export to, what do we usually export and how many funds earned from the defence industry returns to the Ministry o Defence and the Armed Forces?
Serbia today is definitely the biggest producer and exporter of weapons and military equipment in the Balkans. Our products meet all standards, and we are the best known of the ammunition in all calibres. We export to the markets ranging from Indonesia to the United States.
However, the best cooperation we have with the traditional customers, with those countries that trained their officers in our military academies as early as at the time of Yugoslavia. These are Iraq and Algeria, and we expect Libya, Egypt and Kuwait. In addition to cooperation on the issue of arms exports, we have excellent cooperation in the field of military education – officers from various countries come to us again for education. Currently, there is a group of officers from the Algerian Armed Forces for the graduate studies, and we expect another one. This gives great contribution to promoting the entire system of defence, and thus the defence industry.
As for the return of the money earned in the defence system, it should be returned through 2.4 percent of GDP, intended for the military budget. Unfortunately it is not so, but we managed to prevent some of the absurd things. It happened that the Serbian Armed Forces pays more for the products of the defence industry than the price for which they sell abroad. Also, the thing that we have to purchase all the goods that was in the warehouses and to help the defence industry in such an unnatural way.
Today these factories earn income to support themselves. It is important to say that the defence industry has been raised from the ashes; the factories were literally collapsed, and from such a situation we arrived back at the leading position. I think that these are the results worthy of any respect for the people who run these factories and workers who work in them.
Is there any possibility of proper privatization of the defence industry, because there is no doubt that there are many who would like to take their portion of these jobs?
At the moment, we are not thinking about privatisation of the defence industry. I think that the state can still invest it and multiply the return on it. The competition that exists in the world now is really big. However, the contracts that we expect this year suggest that our capacities will be employed for many years. At this point it is necessary to respect the quality and the deadlines.
When is the first billion from the sale of weapons and military equipment expected?
I expect it to be by the summer. It will be then that the contracts will be signed through which the first billion dollars earned from the sale of arms and military equipment will come during the term of this government administration.
Following the military pensions and a part of military health care, what are other traditionally military elements that can move to the Civilian Sector?
In the previous period the military was unfortunately engaged in operations that have nothing to do with the military calling. Therefore the condition of the various military self-revenue establishments is poor. Today we are in a position to establish that the establishments that have a monopoly in the defence system, such as canteens, make losses. Also, up to 3.5 thousand hectares of arable land in Vojvodina costs the defence system about 500 million per year, instead of generating income.
If there is enough energy, consciousness and intelligence, we should entrust these jobs most urgently to the “outsourced” agencies. Nowhere in the world of doormen do not work as the military members. A soldier is an extremely costly “civil servant” to work as a porter.
A good example of integration of military institutions in civil society is the MMA.
The Military Medical Academy and the hospitals in Nis and Novi Sad were partly put at the disposal to the civilians. We believe that these institutions have the capacity that exceeds the needs of the system itself and we want to put them in service of Serbian citizens for whom the army exists.
Among the great achievements is the establishment of a higher military medical school in which we educate future doctors who will have also finished officer’s training, which is not usual in the world, and we already have two foreign cadets in training.
There's not much to do, but I can not help it to ask you what will be the fate of the military ensemble “Stanislav Bini?ki”? There were some indications that it will be abolished.
“Stanislav Bini?ki” has become a brand of the Ministry of Defence, and it has been recently that a CD has been made with the Serbian marches and “kolo” dances. They are the orchestra of the Guard, and one of the best promoters of the defence system. I'm glad to hear from the people who are competent that we made a big step ahead in that area and that Serbia now has fabulous military orchestra, and a choir at the Military Academy.
According to the concept of moving the barracks from the cities, a large military property will be released. Who is going to sell it, how and to what purpose will that money be used?
It is a property of the state of Serbia. On the basis of analyses, Armed Forces declares certain real estate as non-perspective, and sells them to the Directorate for Property of the Republic of Serbia.
In this and the previous year there was a decline in property values, investors have reduced the investments, so we are finding alternative ways – when the price appropriate – by selling or by exchanging the property for a certain number of flats.
One of the most important issues is solving the housing issues of the members of the Armed Forces because many of them are still living as tenants. How will you solve this problem and can military members continue to count on affordable residential loans?
In our country, it is only in the military that if the members do not have solved housing issue, they receive compensation from the Ministry of Defence, whether retired or active. So that lately we have come to a paradoxical situation that those who are the only ones receiving compensation declare themselves as homeless.
Only in the previous two years we solved 2,200 housing problems. If you have in mind that each year the Ministry of Defence employs about 350 new employees, it means that we solved this problem for those who have come to the defence system in the last seven years.
If we know that more than 12,000 persons do not have housing problem solved then it is clear that it was for decades that this issue was not resolved in a way that it should have been. The idea is that a number of people are taken care of by giving them housing which they have to buy, and to stimulate others to take residential loans to buy their own apartments or build houses in a designated military property.
The last three defence ministers had their concepts of changes in the military and they often entered into conflicts with the officers’ corps. How are the relations between the Ministry and the General Staff regulated today, or is there any interference of the profession in politics and vice versa?
What I do not allow either myself or others, is to confuse the profession and the politics. I personally do not meddle into the profession and I accept what was said from the competent services of the General Staff, but I also do not allow policy-making in a way that has not been declared by my party, or the one that I would not support.
Since the recent changes at the top of the military we have had no tensions in the relations and the results that we achieve in the promotion of military in international levels are the result of the synergy that exists between the civilian and the military parts of the Ministry. We function in a much better way, and I believe that with certain changes in the functioning we can build yet better and stronger system in the future.
Opposition parties are hoping that the ruling coalition counts their last days. Will the Mirko Cvetkovic's cabinet carry on through to the end?
Let them continue to count, they have to count another 900 days of the term of this Government. If you analyse a little bit what has happened in the region and Europe, all those who are well-meaning even though they do not support this government must recognise that the government made moves that have saved our economy and the country.
The way in which other governments tried to get out of the crisis actually showed how better we are compared to them.
According to information from VBA that is waiting for you on the table in the morning, are we close to the end of cooperation with the tribunal in The Hague?
I cannot tell you whether we are closer or farther, but it is certain that serious efforts are made to get the job finished. It is regrettable that we have not had a chance to judge these people in our country, but the value system that should lead us towards the European perspective of Serbia means the final resolution of that tragedy that has lasted for years in the area of former Yugoslavia.
These include the Resolution on Srebrenica adopted by the Serbian National Assembly. I am convinced that this is an important and crucial moment for the future of Serbia. I know that there will always be those who would prefer that things do not change, those who would like to go forward but holding the brake.
On one hand there is General Vlada Trifunovi?, on the other Milan Tepi?. Who is a hero?
It is an extremely difficult question. They are both heroes in their own way. As a father who sees his sons one day in the Serbian Armed Forces, I have no doubt that General Trifunovi? did a lot by saving the lives of the soldiers.
On the other hand, when someone vowed to give life to defend their country I have very great respect for people who really did it.
I hope that Serbia will never be in such a position to value the heroism of our officers in such a way and that in the future we will never get into a situation that our officers and soldiers die.
